A．（几何证明选讲选做题）如图，已知AB为圆O的直径，BC切圆O于点B，AC交圆O于点P，E为线段BC的中点．求证：OP⊥PE．1 S/ `9 B/ g3 i9 H6 W9 T- N% L2 JB．（矩阵与变换选做题）已知M＝，N＝，设曲线y＝sinx在矩阵MN对应的变换作用下得到曲线F，求F的方程．0 f
A6 E1 Y( @. Y- L( jC．（坐标系与参数方程选做题）在平面直角坐标系xOy中，直线m的参数方程为（t为参数）；在以O为极点、射线Ox为极轴的极坐标系中，曲线C的极坐标方程为ρsinθ＝8cosθ．若直线m与曲线C交于A、B两点，求线段AB的长．0 D& Y, h1 ?5 J' H1 G: P& FD．（不等式选做题）* R* i7 I* I. O5 d4 b- N/ M, ^7 N设x，y均为正数，且x＞y，求证：2x＋≥2y＋3．
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在线咨询您好，告诉我您想学什么，15分钟为您匹配优质老师哦马上咨询&&&分类：A．（几何证明选讲选做题）如图，已知AB为圆O的直径，BC切圆O于点B，AC交圆O于点P，E为线段BC的中点．求证：OP⊥PE．1 S/ `9 B/ g3 i9 H6 W9 T- N% L2 JB．（矩阵与变换选做题）已知M＝，N＝，设曲线y＝sinx在矩阵MN对应的变换作用下得到曲线F，求F的方程．0 f
A6 E1 Y( @. Y- L( jC．（坐标系与参数方程选做题）在平面直角坐标系xOy中，直线m的参数方程为（t为参数）；在以O为极点、射线Ox为极轴的极坐标系中，曲线C的极坐标方程为ρsinθ＝8cosθ．若直线m与曲线C交于A、B两点，求线段AB的长．0 D& Y, h1 ?5 J' H1 G: P& FD．（不等式选做题）* R* i7 I* I. O5 d4 b- N/ M, ^7 N设x，y均为正数，且x＞y，求证：2x＋≥2y＋3．
A．（几何证明选讲选做题）如图，已知AB为圆O的直径，BC切圆O于点B，AC交圆O于点P，E为线段BC的中点．求证：OP⊥PE．1 S/ `9 B/ g3 i9 H6 W9 T- N% L2 JB．（矩阵与变换选做题）已知M＝，N＝，设曲线y＝sinx在矩阵MN对应的变换作用下得到曲线F，求F的方程．0 f
A6 E1 Y( @. Y- L( jC．（坐标系与参数方程选做题）在平面直角坐标系xOy中，直线m的参数方程为（t为参数）；在以O为极点、射线Ox为极轴的极坐标系中，曲线C的极坐标方程为ρsinθ＝8cosθ．若直线m与曲线C交于A、B两点，求线段AB的长．0 D& Y, h1 ?5 J' H1 G: P& FD．（不等式选做题）* R* i7 I* I. O5 d4 b- N/ M, ^7 N设x，y均为正数，且x＞y，求证：2x＋≥2y＋3．
科目:难易度:最佳答案A、对于平面几何中垂直的证明，一般采用相似法，或者是圆内的性质来得到，该试题主要是分析得到弦切角定理的运用。B、曲线F的方程为.C、D、对于不等式的证明，一般可以运用作差法也可以结合均值不等式的性质来得到，难点是构造定值。解析试题分析：A. 解：因为AB是圆O的直径，所以∠APB＝90°，从而∠BPC＝90°．
2分　　　　在△BPC中，因为E是边BC的中点，所以BE＝EC，从而BE＝EP，因此∠1＝∠3．
又因为B、P为圆O上的点，所以OB＝OP，从而∠2＝ ∠4．
7分因为BC切圆O于点B，所以∠ABC＝90°，即∠1+∠2=90°，从而∠3+∠4=90°，于是∠OPE＝90°．
9分所以OP⊥PE．
10分B. 解：由题设得.
4分设所求曲线F上任意一点的坐标为（x,y），上任意一点的坐标为，则MN＝，解得 .
7分把代入，化简得.所以，曲线F的方程为.
10分C. 解：直线m的普通方程为.
2分曲线C的普通方程为.
4分由题设直线m与曲线C交于A、B两点，可令,.联立方程，解得，则有，.
7分于是.故 .
10分D． 证明：由题设x＞0，y＞0，x＞y，可得x－y＞0.
2分因为2x＋－2y＝2(x－y)＋＝(x－y)＋(x－y)＋ .
5分又(x－y)＋(x－y)＋，等号成立条件是x－y＝1 .
9分所以，2x＋－2y≥3，即2x＋≥2y＋3．
10分考点：几何证明，不等式，参数方程点评：解决这类问题，一般要结合基本的知识来得到，试题难度不大，属于基础题。注意积累该方面的做题方法。知识点:&&基础试题拔高试题热门知识点最新试题
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暂无点评暂无点评Tocharian Ancient Language similar to SLAVIC/Serbian/Keltic?; Tocharian word list.
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PM (12,138 Views)
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If Tocharian is not Keltic/Slavic then explain these similarities to the Serbian language (in Red- C=TS, J=Y). I may have missed some
Is this a pure coincidence?I think even these Tocharian -English translations must have been some kind of estimation. I don't know Keltic so if you see any similarities it would be nice to know. In any case, feel free to add, correct or comment. Notes for Dictionary: general - Common Tocharian or Tocharian A words italic - Tocharian B words á, í, ú - long a, i and u sounds ? - a sound like in Sanskrit a?va or in English cashier ? - a sound similar to German K?se (cheese) or English band ? - a soft [n'] sound s' - palatal s usually written as a little line over it n., m., r., s. - cerebral sounds @ - the Indo-European 'schwa' sound Dictionary (192): a?c- - a beginning, a start (Sanskrit ásad- - to get down, ádis - a start, Slavic *jézda - a riding) PO?Iak, ek - an eye (IE *okw- - an eye) OKOakmal - a face (see ak + mala?) amokyo - art (instr.sg.) UMETNOST, PODMUKLOST, NAUKAasam.khe - a variety as's'i - exactly (particle) SASVIMats - exactly ISTOámpi - both (IE *ambh- + *bhó - both) á?c - down ánt - through, across ánt, ánte - a forehead (IE *ant- - fore, forehead) ant-api - both (see ámpi) OBE,OBA, OBOJEákás'acc - to the sky ánte - a plain PLATNO, PLATANáre - a plough (IE *ár- - to plough) ORATIárki , árkwi- - white (IE *arg'- - white, silver) ártimár - we should love ásta - bones (IE *kost-, *ost- - a bone) KOSTati - grass (IE *ad- - to grow?) RASTI = TO GROWbime - a thought, an idea UM = MIND, BRIGHTNESS, INTELLECT, UNDERSTANDINGPOJAM = IDEA, CONCEPT, PERCEPTIONcake - a river (IE *tek- - to flow, to run) TOK TE?I UTICATI = TO FLOWREKA = RIVER, POTOK = STREAMTR?ATI = TO RUNckácar, tkácer - a daughter (IE *dhutér- - a daughter) K?ERKA, K?I, ?ERKA, DETE = CHILD?twar, ?twer - four (IE *kwetwores - four)
?ETIRIe-, ai- - to give (IE *ay- - to give, to take) e?ane - an eye O?I ents-, en'k - to bear (IE *nek'- - to bear, to carry) i- - to go (IE *ei- - to go)I?I íkam - twenty (IE *wíkmot - twenty) kaklyus.u - on hearing (verbal adverb) (see klyos-) kakmu - on coming (verbal adverb) kaltr - he stops k?m- - to come (IE *gwem- 'come') kam, keme - a ripple, a tooth (IE *gonbh- - a ledge) k?nt, kant, kante - a hundred (IE *kmotom - a hundred) kanwem - knees (dual, IE *genu- - a knee) KOLENOkáryap - harm KVAR,KRIV,KARATI = SCOLDkuryar, karyor - a purchase (IE *kwreya- - to buy) kus - who? (IE *kwis - who) KOk?s - to go out, to extinguish (IE *gwes- - to extinguish) UGASITIkast - famine OSKUDI?Akay-urs, ka-urs.e - a bull (IE *wers- - a bull) kektse?e - a body KUCI?TE,OKOSNICAkerciye - a palace (IE *gher- - a settlement) kláw - to declare, to announce (IE *kleu- - to hear) OGLASITIklots, klautso - an ear (IE *kleu- - to hear) KLAS, UHO, SLUHUVO= EAR?UTI, SLU?ATI , OSLUKIVATI= TO HEARklyos- - to hear (IE *kleu- - to hear) SLU?ATIknán - to know (IE *gnó- - to know, from *gen- - kinship, a knee) ZNATIko, keu - a cow (IE *gwou- - a bull) KRAVA=COW, VO = OXkrons'e - a bee (IE *k'ers- - an insect) ksaise - old STAR= OLD ISKUSAN = OF EXPERIENCE, OLD, PRACTICED, ADEPTktsai - to grow old ku - a dog (IE *kwon- - a dog) KUCE = CUB, KUTA = DOGkuk?l, kokale - a wagon (IE *kwel- - round, a wheel) KOLICA, KOLAkulm?nts - reed (IE *k'al@m- - straw)SLAMAN kuras', krost - cold (IE *krus- - an edge of ice?) KRUT = STIFF, RIGID, FROZENkwyall - why? laks, l?ks - a fish (IE *lak'@s- - fish, a salmon) lap - a skull (Greek lophos - a nape, a hill, Slavic lob - a forehead) lip- - to remain, to stay (IE *leikw- - to stay) lk-, lyk- - to see (IE *léuk- - to see, to look) lw - a beast LAV = LIONlyukemo - illuminated (participle) (IE *leuk- - light) lyutár - excessively (Welsh llid & *lúto- - rage, Russian lyuty - angry, terrible) LJUT= ANGRYmá - not (Greek má, mé - not, Sanskrit má - don't) NE = NOT, NEMOJ = DON'Tmácar, mácer - a mother (IE *mátér- - a mother) MATERmakí - much (IE *mag'- - large, many) MNOGO note the English word megamala? - a cheek malk-, m?lk - to milk (IE *melg-, *melk- - to milk) MLEKO = MILK, MUSTI = TO MILKmalto - for the first time (IE *mal-/*mel- - a top) malyw, mely - to press (IE *mel- - to grind) MULJACA, MLETI, MELJATIma?, me?e - a month (IE *men-es- - moon, a month)MESEC m?nt - how m?s's'unt - brains (IE *mazgh- - brains) MOZAKmen'ki - less (IE *manw- - small, little)MANJI = less, MALO = small misa - meat, flesh (IE *méms- - meat) MESOmit - honey (IE *medhu- - honey) MEDnás - us (IE *nosmes - we) NAS?kat, ?akte - a god (IE *nekt- - a deity) ?om, nem - a name (IE *nem- - to call, to assign) IME?u - new (IE *newo- - new) NOV?ú - nine (IE *newno - nine) nut, naut - to die (IE *náw- - a corpse, to die) okat, okt - eight (IE *októ - eight) oki - like (conjunction) KAOom-post-am. - after that (IE *po- - after) POSLEonkal?m - an elephant ork?m - gloom, darkness (Greek orphnos - dark, dark brown)MRAK/MRA?NOST/SMRKNUCE orto - up (Latin orior - I rise) p?lts?kk - a thought pák, páke - a section (IE *bhag- - to share with smb) pácar, pacer - a father (IE *pa'te'r - a father) p?k- - to cook, ripen (IE *pekw-/ *pokw- 'to cook') PE?p?l, píle - a wound (IE *bhal- - ill, sick) BOLp?lt, pilta - a leaf (IE *bhel- 'leaf') LISTpa??, pi?, pis' - five (IE *penkwe - five) PETpant, pin.kce - fifth (see above) papaks.u - something boiled (*pek-, *pekw- - to bake) p?rk?r - long p?rwán,
p?rwáne - an eyebrow (IE *bhrú- - an eyebrow) OBRVAp?rvat,
p?rwes.s.e - the oldest, a wizard (see parwe) parno, perne - shining (participle) parwe - at first (?) (IE *pro-wo- - forward, first) PRVOpás, pásk - to graze (IE *pá-, *paH- - to secure, to graze) PASTIpe, pai - a foot (IE *ped- - a foot) pin'kam. - he writes (IE *peik'- - to draw signs) plák - to be agree plewe - a ship, a boat (IE *pleu- - to sail) PLOVITI = SAIL, PLIVATI = TO SWIMpokem. - a hand (IE *bhághu- - a hand) RUKA= HANDpor., puwar - fire (IE *paur- - inanimate fire) PO?AR, VATRA = FIRE, ABLAZE, ?PORET = STOVEporat, peret - an axe (IE *pelk'- - to chop) - could be borrowed from Iranian pracar, procer - a brother (IE *bhrátér- - a brother) BRAT, braca - brethrenprak, p?rk - to ask (IE *prok'- - to ask) pres'ciye - ooze put-k - to judge, to divide (Latin putare - to think, Russian pytat' - to torture) rake, reki - speech, a word (IE *rek- - to speak) RE?, RECI, conjugation ratre, rt?r, ratrem. - red (IE *reudh- - red, rust)R?A= RUSTri, riye - a city rit - to search s.?k, skas - six (IE *sweks - six) ?ESTs'?k, s'ek, s'ak - ten (IE *dekmot - ten)DESET sále, sályi - salt (IE *sal- - grey, salt) SO, SOLI, SLANs?lk- - to pull out (IE *selk- - to drag, a furrow) salu, sol - whole (IE *salw- - whole, healthy) CELI, CEOs.?lyp, s.alype - fat, oil (IE *selp- - fat) s.amáne - a monk s'?m, s'ana - a wife (IE *gwen- - a wife, a woman) ?ENAs'ánmaya - he was proclaimed s.ar, s.er - a sister (IE *swesór- - a sister) SESTRAs?rk, sark - an illness sas, se, s.eme - one (IE *sem- - one, the only, alone) SAM = LONEs'cirye - starry se, soy? - a son (IE *sú- - to be born)SIN = SON se (masc.), sá (fem.), te (neut.) - this (IE *so, *sá, *tod - this)TO, TE s'is'kiss - a lion (acc.sg.) skente - they are (IE *es- - to be) smimám. - smiling (participle) (IE *smey- - to laugh) OSMEHsoma-, somo- - the same, similar (IE *smoo- - the same, some) s.p?m, s.p?ne - a dream (IE *swep- - to sleep, *swep-no- - a dream) SAN= DREAM, SPAVATI = SLEEPs.p?t, sukt - seven (IE *septom - seven) SEDAMspin- - a hook, a peg (IE *spey- - a peg) s.tám, stám - a tree (IE *stá- - to stand)STAJATI=TO STANDs.top, s.tow - a stick (IE *stúp- - a branch, a stump) ?TAPsu (masc.), sá (fem.), tu (neut.) - that (see se) súwa - to eat (Slavic *z'vati - to chew, Latvian z'aunas - gills, Old High German kiuwen - to chew, Armenian kiv - arboreal resin, Persian javiden - to chew) suwam. - it is raining (IE *seu-, *su- - to rain, to flow) SIPATI = TO POURswase, swese - rain (see above) SVE? = FRESH (as in after rain it is fresh)KVASITI = WET,TO SOAKt?m - this (IE *to- - demonstrative pronoun)TO, TA t?n'k-, tan'k- - to interfere (IE *tnog- - heavy, hard) táp?rk - now (Russian teper' - now?) tek - to touch TAKNITItetriwu - he pounds (IE *ter- - to rub) TRTI,TRLJATItkam, kem - ground (IE *dhghom- - ground) tm?k - that is why TAKOtm?s' - then ZATIMtr?m-, t?rm-, treme (pl.) - to shiver, a shiver (IE *trem- - to shake) DRMATItri, traiy - three (IE *treyes, *trí - three) TRItrit, trite - thrice (see above) TRIPUT/TROJNO/TROSTRUKOtsar@ - a hand (IE *g'hesro- - a hand) ts?r - rough, shaggy (IE *khar- - sharp) KRST/O?TAR/KAI?ARtsatsápau - warmed (participle) (IE *tep- - warm) TOPAOtsik - to generate tsirau?e - power, strength tsras'i - strong ?VRSTtsu- - to link, to bind (IE *dhów- - to bind) CVORtu - thou (IE *tú - thou) TItumane, tumám. - ten thousand tunk - love wac - a quarrel, struggle (IE *wod- - to speak, to shout) SVA?A = quarrel, VIKA/ZVATI = SHOUTwaiwalau - dizziness (IE *wel- - to turn, to twist) wak, wek - voice (IE *wekw-/ *wokw- 'voice') ZVUK, VEKATIw?l, walo - a prince (IE *wal- - strong, powerful)VLADAR, VLAD note the slavic name VLADO or the Romanian prince Vlad the impaler w?l - to die walke - long DALEKOw?lts, yaltse - a thousand want, yente - to fly, to breathe wáp - to weave w?r - water (IE *war- - water, wet) warto, w?rto - a garden, a grove (IE *wer- - to defend, to close) VRTw?s - gold w?tk-, watk- - to order (see wac) VLAD, VODITIwes - we (IE *wei- - we, me and you) MIweskemane - speaking (participle) wramm - a thing wrau?a - a crow VRANAwu (masc.), we (fem.) - we two (see wes) wu, wi - two (IE *duwo, *dwo - two) DVAyam, ya, yám - to do (Hittite aia- - to do) yok - to drink SOK = JUICEyokani - thirsting (participle) ysar, ysár - blood (IE *esór- - blood) ys?s. (3rd sg. pres.), yayásau (participle) - to boil (IE *yes- - to boil) ytár (f) - a path, a way (see i-) yuk, yakwe - a horse (IE *ekwo- - a horse)
Edited by , Feb 27
This is Dinarid. If they don't look like this, then they ain't Dinarid.
Very interesting, i also believe a book was published which shows the evidence that the clothes of the Tarim mummies were of Celtic origin. They used forensics to look at the texture and patterns, and found a direct match to the Celts.According to the ancient geographer Strabo, a small population of the celts mixed with the Scythians, producing the Celto-Scythians. The Scythians occupied parts of Asia, so this may explain the apparent connection in their clothes.
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Quote:&yok - to drink Interesting, there's an Estonian parallel: jook (a drink).The verb is jooma: joon, jood, joob, joome, joote, joovad.EDIT. By your standards &súwa& also resembles the Estonian word for &to eat&, that is &s??ma&.But most words show no similarities to Estonian, however... there are more similarities between latin and tocharian than between slavic and tocharian and about the same amount of similarities between german and tocharian as between slavic and it, in other words... this looks like a case of common Indo-European words.
Edited by , Feb 21
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Topos is right, these similarities are simply due to sharing a common genetic origin as Indo-European languages, and can be found between any Indo-European languages unless the languages in question are heavily influenced by non-Indo-European languages. In fact the dictionary you quoted has the root Indo-European words next to almost all the Tocharian words. There is so much more to classifying languages than just similarities in words which are merely the first step in the process really. Comparative methods (such as lexicostatistics, mass comparison and etc) are used to compare the grammar, phonological system, morphological system, syntax, lexicon, consonant ...etc, which help to reconstruct proto-languages, from which in turn regular patterns of changes to the live languages in question can be observed. In order to show that a particular language is Slavic or Celtic, all these methods should be employed in order to reach a conclusion that the language in question has distinctly Slavic or Celtic characteristics, which Tocharian languages don't as confirmed by the fact that linguists and scholars in the field have classified them to form a separate distinct branch of their own within the Indo-European family of languages. The figure below is of a simplified tree diagram of the Indo-European family.
For example, even before delving deep into comparative methods, you can simply see, by comparing the dorsal consonant between Slavic and Tocharian languages, that the former group is Satem and the latter group is Centum.
Truthseeker&Very interesting, i also believe a book was published which shows the evidence that the clothes of the Tarim mummies were of Celtic origin. They used forensics to look at the texture and patterns, and found a direct match to the Celts. I believe the book you mention is ''The mummies of Urumuchi'' by Elizabeth Wayland Barber. She is a textile expert rather than an archaeologist or a linguist. In this book, she does discuss some apparent similarities (and differences) between the textiles worn by some of the Tarim mummies, and some Celtic textiles from the Hallstatt culture and the Scottish tartan kilts. She however never concludes that the Mummies were speakers of a Celtic language. In fact, in p.115 of the book there is a tree chart showing the Indo-European language family in which Tocharian is very clearly shown as a branch on its own. All the book does is imply a common neolithic origin for the textile techniques/styles. There is also the possibility of simple coincidence. The book is also almost 15 years old and in it the author discusses some outdated theories such as the Uralo-Altaic language family which is nowadays rejected by the majority of scholars as Uralic and Altaic language families are now believed to be two separate groups with different genetic origins who simply happened to have contacts with each other at some point in their development. Again, before employing any linguistic comparative methods, we can simply consult the chronology of the evolutions of the Celtic languages and Tocharian languages in order to compare them. By the time the genetic ancestors of these languages leave the Indo-European homeland in the Pontic-Caspian steppe and evolve into distinct proto-languages, one is in central Europe where the Hallstatt culture took place in the iron age, and the other is in east central Asia where the Afanasevo culture took place in copper/bronze age (a time frame apparent in the archaic features of the Tocharian languages). So even just the chronology shows the implausibility of Tochahrian languages being Celtic. Truthseeker&According to the ancient geographer Strabo, a small population of the celts mixed with the Scythians, producing the Celto-Scythians. The Scythians occupied parts of Asia, so this may explain the apparent connection in their clothes. Scythians do not appear in Europe or anywhere near Celtic speakers until the 8th century BC, whereas the Tarim mummies are from the 19th century BC onwards.
Edited by , Feb 22
You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother. Albert Einstein
OmshantiFeb 22
PMScythians do not appear in Europe or anywhere near Celtic speakers until the 8th century BC, whereas the Tarim mummies are from the 19th century BC onwards. Most the Tarim mummies date from 1100 - 500 BC, the Scythians within this period emerged. I also further say this, because ancient Greek writings claim the Seres sprung from partial scythian stock, for example Pausanias (6. 29. 9).The Seres are described also by Pliny as flaxen (yellowish) haired and blue eyed and also placed in Central Asia (i.e the Tarim Basin).The Scythians throughout ancient Greek literature are also described as being blonde.
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Ancestry:East Asian
At least 1/10 of the Tarim mummies are dated to be from before 1100BC, but this is neither here nor there really as the actual mummies whose textiles show similarities to the Celtic textiles are among the group of mummies from the burial site in Hami (Qumul) which is dated to be from around 1100BC. The Scythians on the other hand originated among the Iranian speakers in Central Asia and crossed to Europe into Cimmerian territories later pressured by the Massagetai (another Iranian speaking group), as it is recorded in ''The Histories'' by Herodotus 4.11.1. Their appearance in Europe in the Pontic-Caspian steppe is attested archaeologically to be from around the 8th century BC. The Hallstatt culture in central Europe, which is associated with proto-Celtic is also dated from around the 8th century BC. So as you can see, it is chronologically impossible for the textiles of the Hami mummies to have been brought to East Central Asia by Celts via Scythians. Anyway, in the very same book ''The mummies of Urumuchi''
the author also discusses another group of mummies from the burial sites in Cherchen whose belts had striking similarities to the Japanese Kumihimo cords. This obviously doesn't indicate that these mummies were Japanese. The same principle should be applied to the mummies whose textiles show similarities to the Celtic textiles as well. Just because the mummies exhibit West-Eurasian physical characteristics doesn't mean that they were Celts either as Central Asia was originally inhabited by peoples of West-Eurasian stock anyway as I have discussed in .
Edited by , Feb 23
You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother. Albert Einstein
Religion:ProtestantPolitics:Far Right
I think Tocharians came from the Panonian plain in modern Hungary.
Ancestry:Southern EuropeanReligion:Eastern Orthodox
Interesting information u got here, but no Tocharians were not Serbians. Tocharian language is said to be Centum while the Serbian language is Satem, 2 branches of the Indo-European language.It is possible that they were Celtic, but i doubt it. Since they were an Indo-European tribe, you will see alot of similarities between them and other Indo-Europeans, which is why the language itself has some words that are similar with Celtic or Serbian or Greek or whatever. Refrain over quoting.
Edited by , Feb 25
Religion:ProtestantPolitics:Far Right
Three things:1. Tocharians were loaded with r1b, unlike the Indo-Europeans who followed them who were r1a2. Tocharians had textiles identical to Celtic textiles3. Tocharian hats are almost identical to Hungarian, Romanian, Moldovan & Balkan folk hats Tocharian mummy:Hungarians:Romanians:OmshantiFeb 22
PMThis obviously doesn't indicate that these mummies were Japanese. The same principle should be applied to the mummies whose textiles show similarities to the Celtic textiles as well. Just because the mummies exhibit West-Eurasian physical characteristics doesn't mean that they were Celts The archaeological evidence is very limited when dealing with Tocharians, so you have to work with what's available, which isn't much.
Edited by , Feb 23
Gender:FemaleAncestry:EurasianReligion:None
I think Tocharians came from the Panonian plain in modern Hungary. Yes, I do too.
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Ancestry:East Asian
RayderFeb 23
AMI think Tocharians came from the Panonian plain in modern Hungary.Three things:1. Tocharians were loaded with r1b, unlike the Indo-Europeans who followed them who were r1a2. Tocharians had textiles identical to Celtic textiles3. Tocharian hats are almost identical to Hungarian, Romanian, Moldovan & Balkan folk hatsThere are quite a few problems with this claim. 1. As I have already discussed in another similar topic, there is no evidence that the Tarim mummies spoke Tocharian. The latest of the mummies are centuries earlier than the oldest records of Tocharians and their languages. Even if we assume that Proto-Tocharians were present in the Tarim basin during the wide time frame of the mummies, they were certainly not the only people, and their language certainly not the only language. 2. Only few of the Tarim mummies were preserved well enough for genetic testing, and the Chinese government has also been extremely strict about access to the mummies, but so far with regards to Y-dna, only the haplogroup R1a has been found in the mummies. 3. I can see that the R1b claim comes from the fact that it is found in the Uyghurs, but the R1b clade found among the Uyghurs is R1b1b1(M73) which is a very old clade that is believed to have split from the main body of R1b around the Caspian sea region in West Asia before the main body entered Europe. This means that the R1b found among the Uyghurs didn't even originate in Europe. 4. We don't even know if this haplogroup was brought to the region by Tocharian speaking peoples. Considering the age of the clade which is estimated to be around 10,000 years old, it is much more likely that it was brought to East Central Asia by unknown ancient groups of people long before the emergence of the Tocharian speaking peoples. Turkic speaking peoples of today such as the Uyghurs could have absorbed this haplogroup from any group (and not just the Tocharians) who were in central Asia before them who in turn could have also absorbed it from any group before themselves, and so on. I have expressed my doubts on assigning known groups to haplogroups numerous times in many topics.5. Regarding the textiles, I have already discussed the issue, that in the book ''the Mummies of Urumuchi'' a possible common neolithic origin for the textile styles/techniques was suggested. 6. Regarding the felt hat, and I have to note that this also applies to the textile issue, how about the belts of the mummies which are strikingly similar to the Japanese Kumihimo cords as discussed in the book? This fact highlights very well the fact that the similarities found in some of the clothes of the mummies with the clothes of various peoples from around the world are hardly conclusive evidence to prove the origins of the mummies, because otherwise any nation with the slightest of similarities in their clothes can make a claim for it. Rayder& Omshanti&This obviously doesn't indicate that these mummies were Japanese. The same principle should be applied to the mummies whose textiles show similarities to the Celtic textiles as well. Just because the mummies exhibit West-Eurasian physical characteristics doesn't mean that they were Celts. The archaeological evidence is very limited when dealing with Tocharians, so you have to work with what's available, which isn't much. Your response does not make sense with regards to what I wrote. First of all, Tocharians
(not the mummies) and their languages are very well documented in ancient sources, so we know them fairly well. If you are talking about the mummies, then yes, the archaeological evidence only come from the burial sites where the mummies themselves were found, but what I was saying is that if we go only by the similarities of what the mummies were wearing with the clothes of other peoples, then the mummies can easily be claimed to be Japanese as well. Don't forget that some of the mummies were of East-Eurasian stock. So according to your response here, you are actually agreeing with them being Japanese, which I don't think was your intention. This is why I am saying that your response does not make sense. I have noticed that you have simply copied your post from , and your response above did not make sense because you have just copied somebody else's response to a completely different statement
for your response to what I wrote here. Solidus& Tocharian language is said to be Centum while the Serbian language is Satem, 2 branches of the Indo-European language.It is possible that they were Celtic, but i doubt it. I know that you say you doubt it, but if the possibility you mention of Tocharians being Celtic is simply due to the Centum dorsal consonant of the Tocharian languages, then I have to say that the concept of Centum/Satem isogloss as a simple west/east division is outdated. It is now believed that Centum and Satem characteristics mark linguistic developments/innovations that spread out in different times. Basically, the earlier (not necessarily the original) Indo-European languages had Centum characteristics and the Satem innovation took place later in the Indo-European heartland in the Pontic-Capian steppes and spread out. This is why Centum languages are found in the fringes of Indo-European languages where Satemization did not reach. In short, being Centum does not automatically indicate a possibility for the Tocharian languages to be Celtic. It simply means that the proto-languages of Centum groups emerged in regions where Satemization did not reach. Centum/Satem isogloss is also only one of the many isoglosses within the Indo-European family. Finally (this is not to you Solidus), as I have discussed in other topics, the origin of Tocharians and their languages is associated with the Afanasevo culture which took place just to the north of the Tarim basin during the copper/bronze age. This is the major consensus among the scholars and it makes sense, so I don't understand what is so hard to believe about this and so easy to believe about all these fantasies about Tocharians being what they were not.
Edited by , Feb 25
You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother. Albert Einstein
Religion:ProtestantPolitics:Far Right
OmshantiFeb 23
PMYour response does not make sense with regards to what I wrote. It does make sense. You are trying to keep the Tocharians a mystery because you claim a lack of material evidence, while I am trying to show the approximate area where they originated from with the little evidence that's already available. Your argument is: &Just because this looks like this, doesn't mean this came from this&, which I disagree with.
Edited by , Feb 24
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Ancestry:East Asian
Wow, the way you have twisted everything is quite unbelievable. First of all, I have very clearly stated that the Tocharians and their languages are very well documented in ancient sources and that we know them fairly well. I have shown their linguistic classification in this very topic and have very clearly mentioned the fact that the scholars have placed their origin in the Afanasevo culture. So how am I trying to ''keep the Tocharians a mystery''? And where did I ever claim lack of material evidence for the Tocharians? Your response did not make sense because you just copied somebody else's reply to a completely different statement in another site for your reply to what I wrote here. I was saying that if we only go with the similarities in clothes than we could easily claim that the mummies came from Japan, and the reply you copied ended up giving the impression of agreeing with this because it was basically saying that nothing can be done about it since there isn't enough material evidence. As you can see, it was the response you copied that claimed lack of material evidence. My argument is not ''Just because this looks like this, doesn't mean this came from this''. If you actually read my post, you will notice that I gave you several reasons for my argument. Anyway, since you are all for disregarding everything else and only going with the similarities in the clothes, do you think that the mummies came form Japan?
Edited by , Feb 24
You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother. Albert Einstein
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Can Solidus or the moderator just remove the copy of my dictionary from his quote? Thanks in advance.
This is Dinarid. If they don't look like this, then they ain't Dinarid.
Ancestry:Southern EuropeanReligion:Eastern Orthodox
zetaFeb 24
AMCan Solidus or the moderator just remove the copy of my dictionary from his quote? Thanks in advance.ill try do it...but i wanna ask, howcome? does it take up to much space or something?
Senior Member
zetaFeb 20
PMIf Tocharian is not Keltic/Slavic then explain these similarities to the Serbian language Many words seem absurdly different, and hardly any seem remarkably similar.Besides, how do you know these supposed similarities are between Serbian and Tocharian and not other Indo-European languages?And what do you mean &Keltic/Slavic&?
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Tocharian is a distinct Indo-European language of the ancient Anatolian branch which has no direct connection to Slavic except for some common proto Indo-European vocabulary which all members of this language family share. Slavic vernaculars are closer to Iranian languages.
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Gender:Female
Altay,What part is absurdly different? This is just one dictionary compiled by linguists that I found on the internet. There must be some validity between the Tocharian words and the PIE words aside it. Although I might add that not all linguists might know the whole ancient story Here are some more amazing examples:*seip 'pour', Tocharian A: sep-Serbian: SIPati *tem(?) 'dark', Tocharian B: tamāsseSerbian: TAMA, TAMAN*wes 'cloth,clothe', Tocharian A: wsāl 'dress', Tocharian B: wastsi 'dress',Serbian: VE? meaning garments, laundry, clothing*magh 'be able', Tocharian A: mokats 'mighty'Serbian: MO? = mighty, conjugated as mogu,mo?e etc.*krā(u) 'conceal', Tocharian B kraup- 'collect'Serbian: KRITI - conceal*mē 'measure', Tocharian A me-, Tocharian B mai- Serbian: MERA*ndhos/ndheri 'under', Tocharian A: ā?? Serbian: ODOZDO is underneath, NAD is above-the opposite of underHow can that not be similar? Another important factor is the R sound can act as a vowel in some languages. Such as SRB instead of SERB - the pronunciation in the two would be different. Same as in the English word Beserk - there is no real e sound after the s.I think that Serbian has a lot in common with Ancient Tocharian and with the Proto Indo European language. In fact, Serbian has many words very close to the original PIE speakers. It is an UNDENIABLE fact.What are the similarities that you can't see? Since ancient Avestan and Sanskrit are also Indo European languages it would be interesting to see if Persian or Hindu speakers can pick out some of the words in the list.
Edited by , Feb 25
This is Dinarid. If they don't look like this, then they ain't Dinarid.
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Ancestry:East Asian
Modern Persian would probably not show as much similarity because it is heavily influenced by other linguistic groups such as Turkic and Semitic. As I have written previously, the similarity in vocabulary is common between all IE languages unless they are heavily influenced by other linguistic families. It is also natural to expect stronger similarities to the reconstructed proto-IE in more archaic living IE languages such as Greek or Lithuanian than in newer IE languages such as Serbian. Anyway, below is what I found. It is by no means comprehensive, but it should still show what you were asking.Memobekes&Tocharian is a distinct Indo-European language of the ancient Anatolian branch Tocharian is not part of the Anatolian branch. As I have been writing numerous times, Tocharian languages form a branch of their own. The Anatolian branch exhibited both Centum and Satem features which means that their proto-language was partially Satemized, whereas the Tocharian branch was purely Centum.
Below is a simplified tree diagram of the IE languages (which I am posting for the second time in this topic). .Memobekes&has no direct connection to Slavic except for some common proto Indo-European vocabulary which all members of this language family share.I agree.
Edited by , Feb 25
You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother. Albert Einstein
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Quote:&Here are some more amazing examples:Seems like we have someone here who hasn't seen a list of cognates before. Nothing exceptional.
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